Life Matters More
Your dose of thought-provoking insights into the world of sustainability with Philippa Hann.
Life Matters More
#11 Adam Flint & Louise Robson-Turner: What Schools Can Teach Businesses About Sustainability and Behaviour Change
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this special episode, our Head of Impact, Steve Watters, talks to Adam and Louise to explore what it actually takes to shift behaviour inside complex, time-poor institutions, what businesses can learn from schools, and why better design is usually more powerful than louder messaging.
Adam Flint is Education Manager at Keep Britain Tidy, overseeing the delivery of EcoSchools in England. He spent 14 years at the Science and Industry Museum in Manchester designing learning experiences and then led MADE, Manchester's cultural education partnership.
Louise Robson-Turner is a Project Manager in Keep Britain Tidy's EcoSchools team, joining the Count Your Carbon project shortly after launch.
Together, they were central to developing Count Your Carbon, the first free full-scope carbon calculator built specifically for schools, aligned to the global greenhouse gas protocol and designed to support action, not just reporting. The tool recently won gold for Game-Changing Innovation of the Year at the Global Good Awards.
In this conversation, you'll hear about:
- What 14 years of designing learning at the Science Museum Group taught Adam about how behaviour actually changes, and why incremental, relatable encounters with ideas matter more than big announcements
- Why the Department for Education's 2022 requirement for schools to have climate action plans and sustainability leads created a gap that no existing tool was filling, and how Count Your Carbon was built to fill it
- Finding a proportionate effective approach - why Count Your Carbon asks for enough data to produce a confident footprint estimate but not so much that it becomes an unreasonable burden, and what 18 months of development with dozens of school collaborators revealed about that balance
- What the national benchmarking data across the English schools estate actually showed: student and staff commuting combined as one of the biggest emission areas, food as a major factor in primary schools, and energy as the third most significant category
- Why many schools focus heavily on waste and recycling but those actions have a relatively small impact on their carbon footprint compared to food choices and travel, and what full-scope measurement makes visible
- How the tool was designed to feel like an empowerment tool rather than a compliance exercise, and why the framing centres on tracking progress rather than measuring how well or badly a school is doing
- Why over 5,000 schools have registered since launch, what is driving that uptake, and what the data from two full academic years will start to reveal about long-term impact
Key takeaway
Count Your Carbon is an example of how to solve using a suitable approach and tool to estimate carbon emissions. The challenge was never whether schools cared. It was that the tools available were either too simple, too expensive, or built for businesses.
Adam and Louise's argument, shaped by backgrounds in arts and cultural education rather than sustainability consultancy, is that behaviour change starts with removing friction and building confidence, not simply raising awareness. The schools using the tool are not waiting for permission or perfection. They are starting where they can, measuring what they can see, and building from there. That is the only sequence that works.
This podcast is intended to be of a general nature, will not be suitable for everyone, and should not be treated as a specific recommendation. We recommend taking professional advice before entering into any obligation or transaction.
Paradigm Norton Financial Planning Limited is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. Our FCA Register number is 455083.
Registered in England. Reg No 4220937, VAT Reg. No 918550904.
I'm Janita Hamm, CEO of Paradigm in Norton. And this is Life Matters More, where we explore ESG, sustainability, and the future of business.
SPEAKER_02Hello and welcome to Life Matters More, the podcast where we explore sustainability and how organizations can be successful, socially responsible, and genuinely aligned with the world that we want to live in. Today's conversation is about something many leaders are wrestling with right now. How do you turn good intentions on sustainability into real measurable change without it becoming a box-ticking exercise or a source of guilt and confusion? I'm delighted to be joined by Louise Robson Turner and Adam Flint from Keep Britain Tidy, an organization that most of us probably think we know, but which has quietly evolved into one of the UK's most interesting behaviour change and social innovation charities. Louise is a project manager in the EcoSchools team, and Adam is an education manager, overseeing the delivery of eco schools in England. And together they've been central to developing and delivering Count Your Carbon, a tool that recently won gold for game-changing innovation of the year at the Global Good Awards. What makes that prestigious award significant is not just the recognition, but why it was given. Count Your Carbon is the first free full-scope carbon calculator designed specifically for schools, aligned to the global greenhouse gas protocol, and crucially built to help people act, not just report. Adam brings more than a decade of experience designing learning at the Science Museum Group and leading cultural education partnerships. Louise brings the reality of delivery, turning ambitious ideas into tools that busy institutions can actually use. Together they offer a powerful lens on how behavior really changes, what businesses can learn from education, and why better design, not louder messaging, is often what unlocks impact. If you're listening as a leader or a professional trying to make sustainability real inside a busy organization, I think this conversation is for you. We'll explore what Keepwritten Tidy has learned about designing evidence-based behavior change and why tools like Count Your Carbon succeed when they build capability and momentum, not just measurement. You'll hear how they help school leaders focus on what they can control or influence and what that mindset can unlock for any team that wants to move from good intentions to practical, measurable action. So, Louise and Adam, it's great to have you here. Welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_05Thanks for having me, Steve. We're really grateful for the opportunity to talk to you.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, thanks, Steve. Really happy to be here.
SPEAKER_02Brilliant. Well, it's a pleasure to be together. So let's make a start. For for listeners meeting you for the first time, tell us about what is Keep Britain Tidy now beyond the public perception of litter campaigns?
SPEAKER_05Yes, good question. Um so Keep Britain Tidy has been one of the leading environmental charities in this country for over 70 years at this point. Famous, of course, for the litter campaigns, the waste reduction campaigns. But I guess the charity, the charity has evolved. Um it now still has those initial priorities as a as a core focus, but also we we do lots of research projects. We have an amazing research team. We have our our education team as well, which is where Louise and I work. We do the Eco Schools program working with schools on sustainability. We also operate the the green flags accreditation for parks, the blue flags accreditation for beaches. So the focus is probably broadened out to it to a wider environmentalist stance.
SPEAKER_02Fantastic. Yeah, so it's it's obviously more than many of us might think. And you you mentioned behavior change. Um when did it um shift from from sort of that focus on cleaning up to behavior change and social innovation?
SPEAKER_05It's a good question. So Louise and I have only been here for four and two years. So I I think that sort of that shift predates us. But EcoSchools has been delivered by uh keeper and tidy for for over 30 years at this point. So I think that that broadening of scope has been has been in in place for more than three decades. I think um it's an ambitious organization. I think it's always been an ambitious organization.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and so quite a track record to some of this work that you've done. So you you've won the Gold Award for Game Changing Innovation of the Year at the Global Good Awards, and that was for your Count Your Carbon initiative with schools. So can you tell me more about what you think the judges were recognising through that award and what the underlying problem is that you you've been trying to solve with that initiative?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so um in 2022, the Department for Education set out requirements for schools to have a climate action plan and a sustainability lead in place by 2025. And decarbonisation is a central strand of this work. Um, but there just wasn't a tool out there at the time for schools to measure their carbon emissions. Um, and when it comes to reducing your carbon footprint, obviously the first step is kind of knowing where you're starting from. Um so cabinet carbon, um, that's where cabinet carbon came in. Um so we've made measuring and tracking carbon emissions accessible to school leaders, um, especially school leaders who have no prior expertise in this area. And most importantly, it's totally free as well.
SPEAKER_02Fantastic. So let's just talk a bit about your backgrounds. Uh, Adam, you spent uh I think a decade or so um designing learning experiences at the Science Museum Group and then led MAID, which is Manchester's Cultural Education Partnership. Can you tell me about what that taught you about how people actually change in the real world? Um, but I think perhaps also leaning on some of the research theory behind that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So um the majority of my work was at the Science and Industry Museum in Manchester. Um, I worked there for about 14 years actually. So I think having a background in in arts and culture in connection to schools, it's been really useful for this piece of work. Arts and culture, um, education, that I guess they're about the communication of ideas and how that then influences change. And and behavior change, of course, happens incrementally. It's not something that is black and white, it's a it's a process. And I guess it starts with encountering an idea in a format that's relatable, it's clear and engaging, and finding things that connect um your everyday experience to that new thing. So it progressively drips into your understanding and then how you act. And I think we've tried to keep counting carbon clear, engaging, jargon-free, and relevant to the day-to-day operations of a school. And I think that probably comes from our shared background, Louise and I, in arts and culture and and and breaking down those barriers between understanding the concepts, the themes, and just your day-to-day experience.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so so Louise, your background was also um coming from the arts well, wasn't it? But um with education, education and engagement as well. Um, and you, I think, joined the County Carbon Project when the tool had had just launched. So can you tell me more about what you've done since the launch to to try and drive uptake uh and in the tool and also to improve it as you go along and what you've started to learn once schools uh were using the tool?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so I mean, kind of building on what Adam said really, it's really been um a lot about kind of demystifying the process um and giving people a confidence boost. So we spend a lot of time delivering webinars, visiting events, speaking to people in person, um, you know, speaking to people at local authorities and other partner organizations as well as individuals in schools, um, to really kind of yeah, just get people on board with what the process involves and provide that reassurance that you know it's it's not kind of something to get perfect, it's just something to kind of have a go at and see how you get on. Um and you know, thinking about kind of how we've um made improvement um since it's launched as well, like a huge thing that we're kind of keen on is just listening to feedback from people. So we're very clear about how we um are always open to receiving feedback, whether it's positive or negative, um, and we actively bring users into the development process as well. So we tend to have like um kind of research sessions, um, focus groups and kind of ongoing conversations with various partners and people in schools to kind of make sure that we're um making changes that help the tool to better meet their needs as well. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_02Really interesting. So it it sounds like when we're trying to get people to change behavior, you know, it's so important to be engaging with people. This is far more than just a reporting tool. Um so uh tell me a bit more about this tool, then let's let's get into the detail of it. Um what is the carbon the count your carbon tool trying to do? Um, how's it different to other tools and and especially how is it relevant to a school setting?
SPEAKER_04So I think um in terms of the other kinds of tools that are out there, there isn't something that is specific to schools um currently. Um, you know, most carbon footprint calculators are either very simple, kind of for individuals to understand their carbon footprint, or they're very complex and they're more tailored to businesses, and also there tends to be quite a large cost involved. Um, so one of the key things about cardio carbon is that it's totally free. So schools can just sign up, complete a carbon footprint report, and there is absolutely no cost involved. Um, and that's something that you know is really important um, you know, considering that schools have such limited budgets, and often a lot of the things that are involved in decarbonisation generally cost money as well. And we can at least give them this first step for free. It is tailored to schools, so it covers the operational areas that are relevant to a school and doesn't cover operational areas that aren't relevant to schools, which might be more relevant to businesses. Um, and it's been important throughout that we just kept it as kind of simple and accessible as possible. So we ask for enough data from schools so that we can give them a confident footprint estimate, but we don't ask them for so much data that it becomes this massive burden that means they're just not going to do it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, every teacher I know is really busy, and I can imagine there's a there's a high hurdle here just to get people engaged in using this in the first place. So the easier you can make it, the better. And it sounds fantastic to have um a tool that's tailored, particularly for this setting where where you're getting the most relevant information and starting with, presumably starting with the things that are most impactful.
SPEAKER_00Hi, I'm Karen Sutton, founder of the Global Good Awards, and we're thrilled to be partnering with Paradigm Norton to bring you this podcast. We exist to celebrate the people and organizations out there creating real, lasting change in the world, and we'd love you to be part of it. If you think you've delivered something special, then find Global Good Awards online and consider putting in an entry or two. Now enjoy the rest of the podcast.
SPEAKER_02Um, so I as I understand it, you've described it as um it's free, but it's it's a full scope carbon calculator. So tell us a bit more about that phrase full scope. In plain English, um what does that mean and what decisions become possible for a school when they can properly measure their carbon footprint rather than just um trying to guess or make an estimate?
SPEAKER_04So being able to provide that full scope um insight means that schools have got as full a picture as possible when it comes to their carbon footprint. Um this allows them to understand which areas of their operations are having the most um impact on their footprint at the moment, and it also helps them to make informed choices about where they can take action to then help make the biggest impact on actually decreasing their footprint as well. Um so scope three emissions account for a very large portion of just emissions generally. Um, so um, for example, looking at waste, we know that that from our data, we know that um waste accounts for quite a small portion of a school's carbon footprint. That comes within the scope three category. Um but then food and student commuting also come within the scope three category and they have a much larger impact on average in terms of school's carbon footprint. Um and what we see is a lot of people um in schools focusing on reducing waste, recycling, which obviously has a really positive environmental impact, but doesn't necessarily have that significant an impact on reducing carbon emissions. Um, so being able to provide that um insight into scope three emissions alongside emissions that come from things like electricity and fuel, which are a lot easier to measure, just means that schools can make more informed choices. So, for example, looking at the impact of eating less meat in the canteen or encouraging more students to walk to school. Um that generally we think would have um a bigger impact on reducing emissions than um, you know, again, those categories like waste and water.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's interesting that it's some of the less obvious things. So scope three emissions are obviously uh the indirect emissions, right? So then we haven't got any smoke coming out of a chimney at the school for this, and so it might not be things that have necessarily first occurred to teachers or or students at the school, but it sounds as though um food and uh student commuting are some of the more significant things um when schools are using the tool, is that right?
SPEAKER_05Uh yeah, it is. So we we recently um did a really great piece of work where we benchmarked the national picture for emissions across the English schools estate, and student and staff commuting combined came out as one of the biggest emitting areas. For primary schools, food was a huge area, those choices you make in your canteen, but also energy, so fuel and electricity combined was also probably the third most significant area. So it's really interesting. I think there's a big priority right now across schools to focus on on energy, which I think is a really good approach because it's something that is within your sphere of control and influence. But if we can start to influence a bit more behaviour change around the choices we make on our food, but also how we travel to and from school, that's gonna have a big impact too. And I guess it doesn't just stop the parents and the young people making those decisions, it's it's understanding the data and what is required to improve the more structural things within your area, perhaps at a local authority level, about public transport to and from school that's gonna help people day to day make better choices.
SPEAKER_02Right. So this research is actually revealing some of the wider systemic challenges that we've got. Yeah. So you mentioned earlier about um the Department for Education setting targets to halve emissions by 2032 and having sustainability leads and climate action plans. Given that we're talking about these systemic issues, can you talk about um any gap that you see between those ambitions in terms of policy and what schools realistically are able to do?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think the key factors, as with many, many areas of life generally, are money, time, uh, expertise, and firstly identifying what you actually have control over as a school. So changes cost money, and schools, you know, more than ever, have constricted budgets. So they need financial support, but they also need support from organizations and individuals with expertise on how to spend that money wisely. All of that is is dead complex and difficult, and and that's where the gap needs fill in. I think getting started and building momentum is really, really important. And to do that, it's about focusing on the things that you either have control over or or you can influence change upon. So, what you know, what can you change right now? Can you move to a renewable energy supplier? Can you implement meat-free days in your canteen? Can you improve the quality of your scooter and bike storage at school so that pupils feel more inspired to actually use those methods to get to and from school? Um the big part of your emissions, as I've just noted, and there are things that you can change. And once you start to make that change, you know, schools are going to start to feel more empowered, it seems less insurmountable, and then you can start to think about levering change at a wider, bigger level through your SLTs, through your local authority, for example.
SPEAKER_02So you're obviously having real success here, from what I understand. I think in in the last two years, since you launched the tool, over 5,000 schools have registered, and and most of those have completed their first carbon calculation and uh presumably more registering all the time as well. What do you think is driving that uptake? Given how busy teachers are and the pressures on schools, what's the hook that's making these busy people and organizations um interact and get involved?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think there's a number of factors. Um I think the Climate Action Plan initiative by the DFE is really good. It's the closest thing we've ever had to a sustainability mandate for schools. Um, I think the tool itself is a quality product, it's relatively simple and the concept is clearly articulated. I think Louise has done an amazing job of pushing it forward since she joined the team. Um, I think you can also point to the EcoSchools program, which we run. There are over 16,000 registered settings with EcoSchools, which is a large collective of schools in particular. Over 50% of the schools in England are registered with the program. So they are wanting to make change to echo the interests and concerns of their pupils. So it's a group of schools and individuals who are eager to make change, and the calculator features in in our eco schools resources, materials, and communications. Um, I think we also have some great partners who work on the project with us that have helped us that help us to amplify it from Let's Go Zero and their advisors through to um sustainability leads at multi-academy trusts and and local authorities. It's been a real team effort.
SPEAKER_02Well, it sounds really successful and obviously recognized by by the award as well, but um fantastic take up already. Um, and particularly to see the fact that people, you know, this isn't just about reporting, is it? This is people making a plan and then going on, hopefully, to to actually making some tangible changes and taking action as a result. So I'm interested to to hear about that. But also, um how how do you uh when you design this tool and engage um leaders and and schools in this, how do you avoid carbon measurement becoming either just a box-ticking compliance exercise or something that people feel guilty about? Um and instead, you know, you I think you've managed to make it into a learning opportunity and an engagement tool.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so I think we're very mindful when it comes to our um marketing and communications and uh you know direct communication with um users that count your carbon isn't about schools measuring whether they're doing a good or a bad job when it comes to carbon emissions. It's about arming them with knowledge um which will support them to make improvements and track their impact no matter where they're beginning from. Um and it's about that empowerment more than shaming schools. So kind of saying, we know you're doing great things already. Most schools are already, you know, doing some kind of action um around sustainability. Um so it's we kind of angle it that it's it's about schools kind of being able to track that impact, measure their impact, and celebrate the pro their progress rather than it needing to be something that they have, you know, they have to do to kind of meet um meet requirements and that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I imagine it's a fantastic educational tool to use. And um I mean, there's really no reason for anyone to feel guilty here either, is there? I mean, these are systemic problems and it's not all down to individuals, but there is really tangible things that that we can do as as organizations and as individuals. So I presume, I mean, this this you know, a barrier for many people in getting involved in and making the start on measuring their carbon can be the fear of the complexity of what might be involved or just knowing how to start. So I'm interested in how you've managed to to build the tool to make it accessible. And you know, I I imagine there may have been compromises there. So is there any compromises you've had to make to keep it simple and usable and accessible, but without losing the the credibility of the information it's producing?
SPEAKER_05Yes, a good question. Um the the development of the tool took us about 18 months, and we collaborated with dozens of schools as part of that process. Uh we we invited schools to submit data and Hundreds of schools gave us benchmarking data as part of that. What the development process showed us is that we could have created a calculator with 200 questions and created a really accurate footprint, 200 different data points requested, but nobody would have the time to do that. So we had to make a lot of a lot of decisions with our developers, PNZ, advisory, and our school collaborators about what fell within scope and what specific data we asked for. So we have we have a huge methodology description on the site that explains all the decisions if you really go in, want to go into it. But I think we've settled on a scale that works well. Enough data to cover all scopes and create a strong indicative calculation. While it's not being an unrealistic and overwhelming and excluding task.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's great. I mean, and I presumably the lesson for all of us in other kinds of organizations is you can make a start with the things that on the face of it are more impactful. And you don't need to get hung up on worrying about getting every last detail right. Maybe that can come further down the line to go into more detail, but actually there's real value in just starting with estimating the more impactful things. So I'd like to explore this topic of behaviour change because it's it seems to me that you guys have got real expertise on this. And and Keep Britain Tidy describes a lot of its work as being about evidence-based behavior change interventions, and obviously there's all this track record you've had of campaigns on tackling littering and fly tipping and recycling contamination and things like that. So, what what does um evidence-based look like in practice? How how do you as an organization know that an intervention you're making or a campaign you're running actually works?
SPEAKER_04So I think in terms of cave carbon, we're still fairly early on in that journey. Um you know, obviously decarbonisation isn't a quick process, but also, you know, just kind of measuring engagement um year on year is kind of going to take quite a while, I think, for us to really understand um what impact it is going to make long term. At the end of this academic year, we'll have two full academic years worth of um data. So both engagement with the tool and also the carbon footprint reports themselves. Um, and off the back of the statistics report we release in January, we'll be able to sort of update um those figures and also better analyse the um the engagement that we've had with the tool so far. Um and it'll be at that point that we'll really start to be able to understand what impact the tool is actually making, um, and whether you know our interventions are actually um, you know, having that impact that we're hoping for. Um and I think that's something we're really looking forward to is actually kind of being able to see which schools are returning year upon year, which actions they've chosen to implement, what impact they're having. Um, and then we'll really be able to start kind of responding to that as well and um kind of you know potentially changing the way we engage with schools, um, making developments to the tool that will hopefully help us to kind of um increase that engagement further and increase that impact further as well.
SPEAKER_02Interesting. So the schools don't just do this once and and they're done. Actually, this it's a tool they can use to then track reductions that they make over time and and see what's changing. And um so presumably you'll get, as you say, more and more data and and learning as you go on. Um, and you I think you provide resources as well, don't you, for schools about ways to make reductions. So presumably you can keep continue to iterate and refine what you offer.
SPEAKER_05That's correct. Yeah, we so once a school completes a calculation, they can then access um resources that that introduce next step activities. So we have up to 70 recommendations about what they can do to start reducing their emissions. They can cross-reference their calculation, identify the the key areas of concern, and then pinpoint specific actions that they can then add to their decarbonisation plan. What we're looking to do from September 27 is actually add a decarbonisation planner tool onto the platform so that they can tick off what they've done as they've done it and they can then note the amount of reduction that that has inspired. And I think to go back to the previous question, that will add a whole another layer of understanding our impact specifically. We'll also add in lots more recommendations at that point, too.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, fantastic. I'll be interested to have this conversation again a bit further down the line and see what you're getting back from that learning. Um so I mean, in the business world, I think that some organizations historically might have worked a bit harder on the comms and on the design. Can you give us an example of of a behavior that looks like a values problem, but actually it's I mean we touched on this earlier, can be more of a systems problem.
SPEAKER_05Um, and what you've tried to change to shift that yeah, I I guess the example is calculating carbon emissions and beginning to make change itself. So schools want to do this, but the mechanisms to be able to do this are and the clarity around what to do, plus cost and time, uh, they're not there. They're a systems problem. So the systems just haven't previously been there. But but through our tool and and lots of other great organizations that are out there now, that there's a sea change starting to happen. So I I mean, like personally, I'd I'd like to see more grants for schools to tap into to help them make the capital changes with with support from experts who who are who are flagged and maybe certified and pointed to from trusted sources and really drive change. But you know, expecting a really time-poor senior leadership team at a school in a challenging environment to do this is kind of not realistic. So they need that support, they need those recognized and trusted systems to actually start making those changes.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, makes sense. So, Louise, you described the the award as a team effort with other colleagues and external partners. Um, what's made the collaboration work? How did you um design that in to how it uh it was it was planned and and what helped give that traction?
SPEAKER_04So, I mean, the key partnership we've had throughout has been with our sustainability experts who Adam mentioned earlier, um PNZ Advisory. Um obviously, as we've spoken about, Adam and I are not sustainability experts. Um, so it's been incredibly important to um, you know, work with them throughout the entire process. Um they obviously have a lot of experience and expertise in this area, um, mostly working with businesses. Um so we, you know, we we work with them um in terms of like we've got that expertise with schools knowing about education, we've got the connections with schools so we can kind of go in, have those conversations with teachers, people who are going to use the tool. Um, and we kind of act as the translators between the sustainability experts and the schools and the users themselves. So um that I think that's been like the key to the whole project, really. Um what begins as quite an inaccessible um kind of area of work, especially for people who are working in schools. Sustainability leads often have no prior knowledge around sustainability before taking on that role. Um we, you know, take that content and turn it into something that is accessible to school leaders. Um, but yeah, in terms of that collaboration, like working with PNZ Advisory has been absolutely central um to the whole thing being successful.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and great to have that backing from experts who who bring that credibility to that side of things. And I'm aware there's other consultants out there um for the for the business world who who do similar things, but I'm so interested by what you guys bring because um you know the the behavior change challenge is is very similar in the business world. Often you you can have the expertise and some decisions could be maybe made by a leadership team, but but so often some things come down to decisions taken at a lower level or you know, or day-to-day by by many people in an organization, don't they? Um so if if we were talking to um to someone in a business who wants to move from uh you know, we care about this to actually we want to change something measurable, um, what are one or two steps that you'd recommend based on what you've learned from schools about behavior change and and um getting change in in an environment where you know there's little time, little money available to make changes?
SPEAKER_05I think the first step that we always recommend to schools, and and I would also recommend to businesses as well, is it it's not down to one person, you need a team of people. There are a group of people who oversee specific areas within your organization, and these are the key areas where emissions are are happening. It might be your business manager, it might be your site manager, you know. If if you have food on site, it might be your canteen manager, it might be your operations manager looking at your supply chains. It's a group of people that need to come together, identify who those who who those people are and form your sustainability leadership team, check in regularly, have meetings, have productive meetings, and set plans for what you're going to do. And I think so. If that's the first thing, I think the second thing is understanding where you're currently at. And this is again what we say to schools is set your sustainability leadership team and then count your carbon with our tool. Then you have a benchmark, you kind of have your North Star, if you like, you know which areas might be the low-hanging fruit, which are the longer term priorities because they might be out of your control, and then your plan starts to get formed, and you can start making um clear, direct steps towards addressing it. You know, starting with the team, the people, and then benchmarking. And I think from there it's open to you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that rings true for me. I think we found it really helpful to do that benchmarking exercise, get um some insight into what the most impactful things were, and then we knew where to try and prioritize some effort um and and work on that over time. So, yeah, it sounds sounds right to me. What gives you the most optimism right now? Um, you've obviously got this great tool, Count Your Carbon, you've got schools using it, um, or is it the broader shift as well in terms of young people engaging and how they're starting to get to lead on this issue?
SPEAKER_05Uh, I think that's a really good question. I think it it's really interesting. So, yeah, what what gives me the most optimism, the schools using it, or the broader shift in how young people lead? I think for me it's the former. Um, I'm always very conscious through this tool, through eco schools, that we are not suggesting in any way that that climate change is a problem that young people need to solve. You know, they they are they've got their their entire childhood life to grow up, you know, experience, grow, and learn. But we as adults, we are the ones who can make change now. And change needs to happen now, not in 10, 20 years. So the thing that gives me most optimism is the school senior leadership teams, the educators, the local authorities, the multi-academy trust group leads who are now taking direct action on it right now to make change right now. That gives me the most optimism.
SPEAKER_01At Paradigm Norton, we believe money matters, but life matters more. That's why we put people, purpose, and long-term impact at the heart of financial planning. As an employee-owned B-Cork business, sustainability is central to how we think about wealth, helping you invest in ways that support responsible business practices. So by working with us, you can feel confident that your money is working for your future and the world you want to live in.
SPEAKER_05And then the young people who are sort of like gaining the experience and the understanding, they'll pick up the button in 10, 20 years. But hopefully we'll have made significant impact in the meantime.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. It definitely shouldn't be down to the children to solve this, shouldn't it? As encouraging it is to when it is when we see them uh engaging with the issues, but they weren't the ones who caused this problem. So, um what what's a um a better question that you wish more leaders would ask when they talk about sustainability? Questions that would really change decisions and not just change change language or things on the surface?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, another good question. I I think if we're talking about leaders in terms of like national leaders, government, uh, local authorities, schools need help. And the question that they need to ask themselves is what help is needed and how can we give them that help? Because you know, a school has so many challenges day to day, they are dealing with so many different issues, and a lot of what is required is outside of their knowledge, their comfort, and their expertise. So they need people to come in and support them. And if I was a leader at local authority or or at national government, I'd be trying to think how can we plug that gap? You know, whether it's funding, whether it's expertise, whether it's organizations. And and to be fair, there is there is a good movement towards that. The DFU are doing some really great stuff. Um, but I think that's the question. How can we help schools plug the gaps that in order to get them over the line, start becoming more sustainable?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, because it's great to see the willingness of schools, but that these are, as we said earlier, the bigger issues that they don't have full control over. I I liked what you said earlier about the difference between things that we can control and things that we can influence, and the difference between that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I mean we we have an aging school estate. We have lots of buildings that are encountering material problems. The cost is going to be significant. Um, but it's a short-term cost for a huge long-term gain. And I think that's a something that you can scale up to the wider question around sustainability and going to net zero. You know, I I think we we need to advocate and make the changes now to see huge, huge benefits in the future, because if not, we're going to see huge problems in the future. And I think if if there can be intervention, funding can be allocated, building structures can be improved, heat pumps can be put in, solar panels can be put on roofs. You know, all of these things are are complex and costly, and then schools need support to implement them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, thankfully the the cost of some of these technologies are coming down, aren't they? But it's a classic case of um uh you know, invest now and you will get the savings, but it but it does require some upfront investment.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, absolutely. And uh and it gives schools more strength and and independence if if, for example, they are a little bit more in charge of the energy that they're producing. You know, it gives them strength and it and it gives them a little bit more assurance about their budgets for the next few years, in in the sense that they can understand that maybe 10% of our energy is covered for the next five years because we're doing it ourselves. You know, it I think renewable energy specifically gives us power, and I think that's important.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and we're seeing that more than ever at the moment with the the oil crisis going on and how how dependent we all are on it, aren't we? So um, is there any myths out there about behavior change or anything else that you guys think we we need to expose and and maybe uh see the end of?
SPEAKER_05I mean, climate denial needs to go in the bin straight away, right? Like the idea that um net zero is is is unachievable and that it's a bad idea and that it's gonna damage business. Because I think like most studies show that doing it now prevents crises in the future that are far bigger than than the cost of actually moving towards net zero. I think there's a lot of bad ideas that need to get dumped, and we need to start making some serious realistic progress that will have huge impacts for our children. You know, I've got a four-year-old. I want her to be 24 and feeling comfortable about the future of our planet.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I've also got young children, and it's uh it really brings it home, doesn't it, when you start to think about their lifetimes and uh what they're going to experience. So yeah, it is uh in terms of getting the change, is is uh um a bit of a blind spot out there from what you've learned in schools, are there maybe one or two things that that people don't have their eye on, something that they should start measuring that that maybe isn't obvious, that that should get more focused than it does at the moment.
SPEAKER_05I I guess I mean I'm I'm sure Louise will be able to Louise works on this tool day to day. She's she's amazing with the schools, and she's probably got a great answer too. But what I find particularly interesting is the idea around scope three and supply chains, you know, that often it's it's outside of our sphere of control, you know, because the materials that are used by one of our suppliers, we we perhaps can't change that, and it's difficult to change that. But I think if we can start to um spend our money with organizations who have good good attitudes towards sustainability and are trying to do that more, that speaks quite quite loudly. And I think if businesses know that consumers are now being more ethical, then they themselves have to be more ethical.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And and as organizations buying and purchasing services or products, we we often have more influence on our suppliers than we realise. I think suppliers are sometimes surprisingly willing to listen and and uh look at making changes if they can. Um, so I so what are schools doing really well? What can businesses learn from schools in terms of what they're what schools are already doing better on sustainability?
SPEAKER_04I think it's that kind of practical side of things that schools do really well in terms of involving students, um you know, things like students as you know, they they sort of get students involved in um like reducing their energy usage, reducing water usage, things like that. And that they they kind of can take own a lot of ownership over that, um, you know, in terms of kind of um holding other students more accountable, holding their teachers accountable even. Like if the teacher's not turning the light off at the end of the day, like, and that school is you know focusing on their electricity usage, you bet that teacher's gonna hear about it from at least one student. Um, and it's it's sort of yeah, I think um a lot of young people they're they're they're they're kind of very enthusiastic about this stuff, and it it almost makes it easier for um schools to implement the you know these kind of behavior changes. Whereas within businesses are people are a little bit more reserved, kind of maybe don't want to kind of rock the boat at all in terms of you know criticizing people or holding people accountable. Um it's you know, I think schools are kind of doing that side of things really well. Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's great. You've got to love the the energy of young people. I'm gonna try and take some of that back into our organization, I think. See if we can get that that going on. Um brilliant guys, is is there anything else I haven't asked about that but you'd really like to get out there and tell people about?
SPEAKER_05I think for me, and we say this with with County Carbon and with eco schools, doing something is always better than doing nothing. You know, don't be afraid to get things wrong because it means you're gonna assess what you do and then you'll get it right next time, in all likelihood. You know, you you've got to sort of crawl before you can walk, before you can run, and I think you've got to start somewhere. So try and feel confident enough to start.
SPEAKER_02Fantastic. Well, I think we'll finish there. That's uh that's about it for today. But um, thank you so much. We've um had a really interesting time covering how schools can move from good intentions through to practical action and measuring what matters, trying to design for behavior change and focusing on um what we can actually control or can influence um as well as the things that we care about. So, yeah, thanks so much for the work you're doing. I'm really interested to have heard about it and um for you taking the time to share about it. Um, if people are listening um and want to take one thing away, then um we always say on this podcast, let's ask better questions, let's take the time to really think about the real problem we're trying to solve. Uh, what would make um the sustainable choice become the easy choice? And what's one Small change that we can all make that would actually create some shifts within the system and address those bigger systemic problems. So to all our listeners, if you found this useful, please do follow the show or leave a rating or a review. That always helps other people to find us. And if you know someone working in schools or education or sustainability who'd enjoy this episode in particular, I'm sure this is the one to send out to them. So please do share that. But thanks so much for listening. We'll see you all again on another podcast. And Adam and Louise, thanks so much for joining us. It's been great to be with you.
SPEAKER_05Thank you, Steve.
SPEAKER_02Thanks, Steve.
SPEAKER_03This podcast is intended to be of a general nature, will not be suitable for everyone, and should not be treated as a specific recommendation. We recommend taking professional advice before entering into any obligation or transaction. Paradigm Norton Financial Planning Limited is authorized and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority.
